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Thursday, May 17, 2007

The Battle Within The Battle

Professor Adil Najam, on his very popular All Things Pakistan blog, featured 'Another Dark Day, But Hope Persists' - a guest post by Fawad, "a California-based literati-at-large" with an interesting blog, ‘Moments of Tranquility’, which you can read by clicking its link on my list of favourites in the right bar. The post, dealing with the recent Karachi carnage, has attracted several comments (and continues to do so). Views often clash, as they should. However, as an off-shoot, a tangential debate on the place of citizen journalism has emerged. I am sure it will be of interest to bloggers at large (and very specially to those who have read Dr. Awab Alvi's recent posting on the Proud Pakistanis e-group). I have taken the liberty (apologies, Adil) of extracting some of the pertinent comments from ATP to save you from sifting through the larger collection (although they are all worth a read in terms of the main theme, so do visit the ATP site).

Aqil Sajjad May 14th, 2007 at 10:53 am And by the way, even pictures captured by the camera crews of the private channels can be anonymously put on-line unofficially if there is something worth broadcasting that the channels are unable to show due to some govt threat. omar r. quraishi May 14th, 2007 at 12:15 pm aqil you have no idea what your’e talking about [...] how many people do you think get their info from Youtube or blogs in the country — they get it from the print and electronic media Aqil Sajjad May 14th, 2007 at 10:10 pm The censorship pressure is undeniable (for some reason Omar gets angry when we mention it), omar r. quraishi May 14th, 2007 at 11:59 pm aqil — i dont get angry but kind of shocked because you have no idea what you’re talking about and when you’re corrected by people who are professional journalists you still insist on having your say [anon] May 15th, 2007 at 6:26 pm Mr. Omar R Qureshi: Whenever I read your comments I get the feeling that you are threatened by the ‘alternate media’ and are forever trying to impress upon people the weight that the print media and its ‘professional journalists’ have in your opinion. Nonetheless, slowly but surely that equilibrium is shifting, however much people like you may try and deny it. If I get no newspaper at my place and get all my news from either the net (online newspapers, blogs etc.) or television (and I am an ardent news follower) then I am sure there are others like me and in the coming years the number will only increase. Blogging may certainly not be as widespread a medium as the regular or print media but it has given a voice to people who have no vested interests, no advertisements to think of, no jobs being threatened and no editorship/censorship. Now obviously the above can be both a good and a bad thing but the fact of the matter is that it has its very own niche that newspapers cannot possibly have for they will forever be controlled in some way or the other. As for Geo (as that is the only Jang Group part I can speak of with authority) it WAS certainly hedging and trying to play it safe, listening to Hamid Mir today on NDTV the fact hit home even more as he was far far more open in naming names while on NDTV compared to when he is on GEO. Syed Talat Hussain is one of the few really brave and truly investigative journalists in Pakistan which is why he was targetted so on the 12th of May, GEO didn’t even come close to Aaj in their coverage. Even during the earthquake GEO had the utterly (PUKE PUKE) reprehensible Amir Liaquat Hussain insulting the thinking Pakistani’s intelligence whereas Talat Hussain dealt with the catastrophe with the dignity and heart it deserved. As for your point about the print version of The News dealing with Hammad Raza’s death and not the online version, it is only when ‘professional journalists’ like you will start realizing the importance of news on the internet which is for more readily available will groups like The Jang Group really move forward in a new direction, till then you will continue to feel threatened by the ‘new media’ instead of embracing it and considering it an augmentation of the regular one and its friend and quirky partner. omar r. quraishi May 16th, 2007 at 4:11 am [anon] — you are living in dreamworld — the number of people who get their news from blogs is miniscule — in any case, just because it grows doesnt mean it comes at the expense of the other media — only an idiot like you would think that a journalist like me would actually be threatened by the alternate media — and even within the mainstream media there are alternative spaces — bet that didnt occur to you either anyways i am not talking about geo but about the print media — also even when aaj tv was attacked they did not name the party either — and for your information no print media organisation has either — so to single out one publication is a bit disingenous on your part also professional journalists do not think of adverts or vested interests when the do their job [anon] — your insinuations that they do are in poor taste [anon]   May 16th, 2007 at 9:27 am Mr. Quraishi: I think it may be a case of weak comprehension skills on your part, your ‘professional’ linguistic ability and ethic you have already revealed by the tone and content of your comment. You can protest against a State Minister resorting to abuse against a journalist but feel free to do the same yourself without batting an eyelid. You have unmasked your ‘professionalism’ right there. If I had been a young graduate begging for a job outside your office I may have been forced to stand such language from you but you know what Blogging has done? It has given me a voice that does not require putting up with a high handed authoritarian attitude, so I am afraid it is beginning to be a LITTLE hard to cow down the everyday man/woman’s opinion by declaring it asinine and throwing it across the table. This is a democracy that you just cannot do anything about, however much you may rant and rave. also even when aaj tv was attacked they did not name the party either — and for your information no print media organisation has Proves my point. It is only bloggers who can come out with the naked truth without any fears of losing a job or a license I too said that blogging is very limited at the moment but in the future it will gain greater currency as blogs with cult following like ATP have shown. If you are talking about percentages, then how many people in Pakistan read an English daily in relation to the country’s total population? I assure you even less are bothered about your editorial piece hidden between reams of other assorted truths and half-truths. The ‘alternative’ spaces within mainstream media are also controlled, it is only blogging that allows complete freedom and ownership to the individual and that is what I was talking about. If you had actually read my comment (or understood it) you would have realized that I end it by talking about the alternative media working in tandem with the mainstream one, not pitting it against each other as most of your comments here seem to do. Each medium has its own limitations and its own strengths and they can work together to fill in where the other lacks. Fawad May 16th, 2007 at 12:36 pm @[anon], I couldn’t agree more with you overall point that Mr. Quraishi is either willfully distorting the argument or doesn’t have the basic intelligence to understand the point. He doth protest too much. He is not even clear himself on what exactly he is defending other than ranting and raving about the virtuous print media and his own supposedly courageous op-ed piece. Again I want to emphasize what I have written before. The Pakistani press deserves praise for its courage under extreme duress but not acknowledging the limitations it works under or being able to see the value of the incredible and growing contribution of online media in opening up the dialog takes a peculiar personality and a head firmly lodged in sand. omar r. quraishi May 16th, 2007 at 2:34 pm fawad — welcome to living in a dream world as well — let me clarify i didnt call you an idiot [anon], i called your remarks idiotic — the number of people who read english newspapers is far more than the number of people who read blogs — and the audience of the english press is quite different from the urdu press — smaller but far more influential as well — and for the record, open your eyes ‘ms’ [anon] — i never said anywhere that the print media is high and mighty but yes do say that those who think that it is not doing its duty are telling lies themselves — and on this i proved it by posting several links from my own newspaper to refute two other interactors — i think people can say a lot in blogs because the medium and anonymity allows it — if you have a mob outside your house which is there to seek revenge after finding out you are writing against them on a blog then I will see your reaction — or i will ask you to be a reporter in a newspaper and see your reaction to threats — till then your posts are immature and idiotic — you have heard of the phrase ‘put up or shut up’ i hope omar r. quraishi May 16th, 2007 at 2:39 pm fawad — open your eyes and learn to read — no one is denying the limitations but there is a difference between saying that the media works under a lot of censorship and tries to do its job and saying that it is a sell-out (because of the govt pressure) – i edit the editorial pages of one of the country’s largest english newspapers and have yet to receive any call from any minister or govt official or the publisher for that matter telling me what to do — like i said you guys have no idea of what you are talking about or of how journalists go about carrying out their duties in real life also [anon] if you read a bit, you would have noticed that in my own columns and editorials i have written about the increasing popularity of blogs and the web — but it is still very very limited omar r. quraishi May 16th, 2007 at 2:45 pm [anon] wrote: “. If I had been a young graduate begging for a job outside your office I may have been forced to stand such language from you but you know what….” what gives [anon] — do you suffer from some severe complex or what — i am not the one who launched in a personal attack for no reason here — stop insinuating about my professional work ethic, or lack thereof, please — the problem with people like you is that they see everything in black or white — you thrive on generalisations — the media is all bad — everything they say is a lie — good grief! you need to get out of your protected blog-existence
Only on the Internet could a professional print journalist (albeit one of no particular import in terms of personal writings, regardless of the 'official' position he holds) write such trash or behave so unprofessionally - telling others they don't know what they are talking about, calling them idiots, making sarcastic but meaningless personal comments - such as asking the author of the original post to 'learn to read', and living in a dreamworld thinking everyone else lives in one. Although Omar R Qureshi's comments must have upset many, both for their tone and content, we see that this democratic medium - which could have been used to call him the many things he more than deserves - has shown more decency and decorum in allowing him to express his inane views and use language that his medium of choice (or his newspaper) would not permit. The times, Mr. Print Journalist, are a-changing. Wake up! You are young enough to be writing (hopefully more maturely and with fewer knee-jerk, personal reactions and with certainly a less authoritarian tone - difficult to shed, I agree, when brought up under years of martial regimes!), in times ahead, for this medium which will be there for a long, long while after print journalism has further lost it's relevance and impact and only the best among it survive.

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30 Comments:

Blogger jehan said...

And so the battle begins! Amazing why professional journalists are so defensive about the role and impact of blogging. The numbers are increasing every day, and lots of people who have tired of the 'old' media are totally drawn in to places like special interest blogs, you-tube and online media. This ostrich type attitude is not going to help people like Omar because there is a new wave and no-one can control it or hold it back. Insults and denials will get him and those like him, nowhere. Wake up Omar - there is a new world out there which is more democratic in its discourse than print media can ever be.It has given everyone a voice and as audio and video is accessible by many more people due to improving bandwidth, even people with limited literacy will find a voice and will be able to air their views.

17 May, 2007 09:54

 
Anonymous BeanZ said...

The fact that fewer people read blogs than printed newspapers is hardly breaking news. The fact that Omar R. Qureshi so doesn't get it, is astoundingly newsworthy. Those who "won't get it" are actually far more dangerous, and in this case, pitiable, than those who don't get it.

The disruptive power of the Internet is thrilling - those of us who are riding the wave are having the time of our lives. Thanks to the open source movement that enabled independent presses, we can sit back and be entertained, as "professionals" rise in defense of an irrelevant and stupid notion.

Sabahat: Don't back off.
Omar: Please continue to respond to cogent, intelligent commentary in this inane manner - it's highly amusing.

Let the games begin ...

17 May, 2007 10:28

 
Anonymous the olive ream said...

Why am I not surprised at the level of reasoning and logic used by Omar R. Quraishi to argue his point? It is quite apparent, that he hasn't just got completely the wrong end of the stick (on this issue) but is hanging from a completely different branch of another tree. The man's perception of reality is laughable...and quite sad at the same time.

17 May, 2007 10:45

 
Blogger Teeth Maestro said...

I had no idea this battle was afoot. I in fact did get a taste of little backlash but I let it die since it would have distracted from the issue at hand, The discussion was on Geo.TV being hacked and was congratulating KMB author MB for a great effort but the reaction from Mr. Omar was surprising.

All I can say is that main stream media like world over initially resisted the alternate media, but has given up the battle and embraced the concept - but yes it does take a wise man to understand the paradigm shift - For the record Alternate Media is NOT replacing the print media it is just proving to be far more independent then the classical form and some readers do embrace it.

But I think at the same time I appreciate Omar Q for at least reading it and coming out in the open, lets not scare him off just yet, but seriously worry about his logic when he argues with Sabahat - amusing to say teh least

I quote

Great coverage MB - I think this is the true meaning of blogging to report and discuss issues as they happen.

Newspaper journalist are usually involved in a ONE-SIDED exchange while we the bloggers get to take the steam immediately as we publish the report.

Well done
Posted by: Teeth Maestro at May 14, 2007 02:43 PM


----
perhaps teeth maestro -- but i wonder how you allow yourselves to make unsusbtantiated and scurrilous allegations like MB made that GEO did this itself -- does he have any proof to back what he said -- if not, it would be better for you to delete that particular remark -- ironic that most of you here accuse the print and electronic media of sensationalism but think nothing about doing the same yourselves

Posted by: Omar R. Quraishi at May 14, 2007 03:07 PM

17 May, 2007 11:58

 
Blogger Sidhusaaheb said...

It seems like the points the various participants in the discussion sought to make got lost somewhere in the rhetoric.

Meanwhile, I think the mainstream media (including print) and blogs have their own places in the larger scheme of things and are complementary.

I would expect things to remain that way for a long time to come.

For me, personally, blogs could never replace newspapers or television news channels, but they often do provide unique insights, which I could never gain from reading a newspaper or watching news on television.

18 May, 2007 10:25

 
Blogger Zakintosh said...

Sidhusaaheb is clear that for him "blogs could never replace newspapers or television news channels" ... a point of view that a large number of people do share. But there is a growing mass that is losing interest in newspapers. Not because of blogs but numerous other issues. Blogs play, currently, a small role in this shift ... but are important enough to be embraced by the older media, where, run by good professional journalists (and not horn-tooting idiots like the one we have been hearing from lately), they do offer excellent analyses and reports. However, the 'financial' pressures on the older media that governments and businesses exert (see the fate of Helpline's TV Program on the Karachi situation) is less likely to be successful in stifling citizen journalism.

As a New Media person, this debate holds a great deal of personal interest and I will try to do a post on this very soon.

Meanwhile, do continue to read comments on the ATP post that started all this. The ones pertaining to this part have reached zany proportions. It is sad to see people, in fits of temper, slowly help erode their own credibility.

19 May, 2007 02:50

 
Anonymous Omar R. Quraishi said...

wow -- you blame print journalists for being undemocratic but you have no qualms with selectively choosing what i wrote on that blog to present a distorted picture of what i was trying to say -- this is quite disappointing kidvai sahib, since i dont know you personally but know of you --

jehan, no one is getting defensive about anything but you probably should read that thread on ATP and not this cut paste selective re hash -- my point, and which is shared by most print journalists, is that the print media has a different role and blogs have a different role and to think that blogs in pakistan are beginning to replace newspapers is to live in a dreamworld -- it would have been better if kidvai sahib here had pasted the posts which had started my response -- by someone called fawad who pointedly mentioned the news website for not carrying a certain story and equated that with self-censorship -- i provided several links and an explanation to tell him that that was not the case but he didnt respond after that -- and then someone by the name of sabahat stepped in launching a personal attack --

jehan (you must be jehanara of PASHA i presume), you need to ask yourself why in the world would print journalists feel threatened by blogs -- in any case many print journalists have written precisely about the democratic nature of the internet in their articles, editorials telling the govt that censorship in such a day and age wouldnt work (some newspapers more than others)but again I think people need to be armed of the facts before they get into a debate --

beanz and olive -- please tell me "what i dont get" --

its quite amazing how presumptuous the whole lot of interactors on this as well adil najam's blog are --

kidvai sahib -- i dont think my credibility, or lack thereof, can be affected by what i write on a blog --it comes from what i write -- it would be far more instructive if you were to comment on that instead of calling someone a 'horn-tooting idiot' -- esp when he isnt around to defend himself --

as for helpline, atv airs on the old STN frequency and it apparently is semi govt owned, which explains why hamid maker's show was canned -- but he is constantly after newspapers to give him coverage btw and is seen by many as more of a publicity hunter -- u did know that i hope ?

19 May, 2007 15:30

 
Blogger Zakintosh said...

orq: welcome to the blog, away from the one we have all unfortunately cluttered by moving the debate away to this mini-battle.

1. i do not recall calling print journalists 'undemocratic'.

2. 'selectively choosing' does sound redundant. however, i chose what, to me, conveyed the offensive and uncalled-for parts of your rejoinder which is what prompted me to enter the discussion. calling people idiots is not an argument, it is indicative of the absence of one. i did expect better from a 'preofessional journalist'.

3. i have linked to the ATP post in the main body of my blogpost as well as in my coment and suggested that readers read that, too. so i was hardly trying to convey that this is all that you and others said.

4. the quoted passages only go up to the point when i wrote the post. but there is a clear indication that the discussions continue and, as you can see, omer, sabahat, and fawad have continued to debate you there.

5. please think coolly: see how offensive my phrase 'horn-tooting idiot' was to you? do you wish me to counter with the lame argument you gave sabahat, that it was not you i was calling an idiot but your ideas? honestly, is their a difference in the desired meaning? do idiotic ideas emanate usually from intelligent people?

6. you ARE around to defend yourself and have tried to do so via this comment. in any case, my blog is not a secret spot, and a link to it was provided on ATP.

7. newspapers are a major part of the media and hamid maker's desire to use them (and all other forms of media) is fine. publicity hunter? but isn't that what he would hope 'helpline' would get?

as for being instructive, i am hardly in a position to instruct anyone who already knows it all. i can only say that your arguments - and the ratatat way in which you continue to add subsequent comments, without a break at times - were disappointing.

i do not know you but know of you and have read you almost from the time you were starting off. i really wish for you had chosen a less defensive (and offensive) way of handling all this. it would then have made it possible for all sides top learn from each other's diverse experiences.

btw, i am not reticent about my profession. it's just that i do not have a one anymore. but i would be more than willing to sit across the table and chat about my previous ones with you (am sure not everyone would be interested).

19 May, 2007 16:58

 
Anonymous Omar R. Quraishi said...

well of course there is a difference between calling someone idiotic and what he or she has said - i would be an idiot myself to call someone i disagree with an idiot but i dont think he or she should take offence if i said that i found his/her remarks silly -- besides, the other person is free to disagree with me as well but to extrapolate that on to my profession, somethingthat was done on that and this thread is equally if not more offensive -- also i can call someone's remarks idiotic without knowing or meeting them ever as in sabahat's case because my description for them is explicitly qualified -- its not the same as calling that person an idiot, which would not make sense since i dont know that person in real life

also the selective choosing (sorry to sound redundant) point is valid (though you dont have to agree with it) because it doesnt show why i called sabahat's comments idiotic -- anyone who reads the thread on ATP from the beginning will see that she stepped in when i wasnt even talking to her, but replying to what fawad had written, and her post was filled with insinuation about my professional and personal conduct as a journalist -- i am sure she would not like it if ranted about her profession and how she performs in it -- she should have stuck to the arguments -- when i called her arguments idiotic she made further personal attacks --

as for people being publicity hunters, that the impression we print journalists get, you dont have to agree with it and that is something that both of us should be okay with --

sorry to disappoint you kidvai sahib about my 'ratatat' response but i am afraid i dont come on blogs thinking that people will judge me -- that i leave for what i write professionally -- and i certainly dont know it all but you should remember that i wouldnt argue with you or with jehanara too much on IT related issues

btw just for clarification, when do you think i was "starting off" -- my point about the profession is more rhetorical than anything -- i dont see doctors or engineers or even IT people being held to a high moral standard on these blogs -- so why journalists -- its quite silly and actually more than sanctimonious for people sitting in their rooms typing away how much of a sellout the media has become or claiming to speak for press freedom -- journalists work to make a decent living just like anybody else and should not have to explain themselves to anyone on how good or bad a job they are doing --

as for a mini-battle, i think you're giving far too much importance to this exchange

19 May, 2007 18:38

 
Anonymous Omar R. Quraishi said...

a point of clarification -- they (journalists) probably need to explain themselves only to their editors and perhaps their conscience (just as much or little as anybody else) esp since they should be judged by what they write (in the paper that is)

19 May, 2007 18:46

 
Anonymous the olive ream said...

Lord have mercy! Even here?
This is beyond surreal. I can't stop laughing.

20 May, 2007 00:54

 
Anonymous Omar R. Quraishi said...

that was a brilliant post olive -- no seriously....

20 May, 2007 02:59

 
Anonymous rahmat masih said...

quraishi sahab - re your 'point of clarification'

why would a journalist who believes this spend a zillion silly infurated and infuriating words on two blogs explaining himself to everyone is beyond me.

also, when do you do your job? you seem to spend most time reading and writing on blogs.

20 May, 2007 05:14

 
Blogger Fawad said...

ZAK,

Thanks so much for your overall effort at trying to clarify this issue on your own blog, move the discussion forward articulately and even to provide Mr. Quraishi another chance at this forum to make the points he is trying to make.

I am not at all being facetious in saying that I don't fully understand what Mr Quraishi is really arguing for and I do think I am missing his point. However, what has been disappoinitng to me is that a professional journalist seems not to have the ability to argue and explain his point cooly and rationally. Once the back and forth comments deteriorate to making mere polemical points I believe that it is better to step back, take a time out and re-engage when and if people are more receptive to advancing a discussion.

Thanks for your blog. Happy to have you back.

20 May, 2007 05:20

 
Anonymous rahmat masih said...

quaraishi sahab is obviously a jekyll-&-hyde journalist.

in print he writes within the constraints of decency. and, since it is a one way medium, he encounters no immediate criticism (making him believe that his points are all accepted).

on blogs (and he is present everywhere, from good ones like 'chowk' to a mixed space like the 'karachi metroblog') he lets loose all his frustrations, says rude things, screams, rants and raves pointlessly on posts best ignored. as an example, see his inputs on http://karachi.metblogs.com/archives/2007/03/which_party_mee.phtml

perhaps we should let him use cyberspace for therapeutic purposes so that we get to read his better work in dawn after his inner cleansing.

20 May, 2007 05:54

 
Blogger Omar said...

rahmat masih -- kindly get your facts right -- i dont work in dawn anymore -- it would be good if you could debate without launching a personal diatribe against your interlocutor -- since that is clearly beyond you and most of your friends here i think i am wasting my time here -- good bye

btw you obviously have never heard of feedback on articles via email -- or have you? rehmat sahib

fawad -- your post is laughable -- seriously -- i think you would have done better by addressing my immediate responses to what you had written on adil najam's blog instead of coming with a oh-i-still-dont-get-it thing -- like i said i seem to be wasting my time at least here --

20 May, 2007 10:22

 
Anonymous the olive ream said...

Acta est fabula ... (I hope)

20 May, 2007 15:57

 
Anonymous rahmat masih said...

omar sahab

considering the time you spend fighting different bloggers on many sites, you don't "work" at the news either.

anyway, i just thought i'd say goodbye to you since you have decided not to return here. thank you for the good laughs, and, to be fair, some interesting information you provided.

20 May, 2007 16:17

 
Blogger Omar said...

you have made a bigger fool of yourself than you could ever imagine rahmat sahib with your last post -- for your sake, as well as mine, i promise not to to respond now

olive - spoken like a true pretentious desi --

20 May, 2007 18:15

 
Blogger Omar said...

and btw rehmat sahib -- i think you shoudl have read that link that you post showing my 'fight' on kmb -- it was telling the thread starter that he should stop character assassinating meera by posting some cheap videos of her -- bhot disappoint kiya aap nay rahmat sahib --

20 May, 2007 18:21

 
Anonymous Khalid R Hasan said...

Clearly every medium has its strengths. Blogs allow a dialogue in real time but contain a lot of irrelevant and often unnecessarily personal remarks.

I don't think newspapers and magazines are going to die out though they will expand into the internet and have their own blogs as well. A couple of decades ago I remember someone showed that the entire text of the 25 minute long BBC 9 o'clock news wouldn't take up even one page of the Times of London. Even though pictures have much greater impact (the coverage of the 12 May carnage on TV has ensured that pages of press releases etc can't deny the facts as seen live)the print media can provide far more analysis and depth even if not as rapidly as is possible on the internet.

I have a lot of respect for Omar R Qureshi as a print journalist but I do think he should try and tone down his blog comments even if he does feel provoked sometimes. A professional should strive to maintain a certain standing at all times.

21 May, 2007 13:05

 
Anonymous Omar R. Quraishi said...

thank you very much khalid sahib (are you the same khalid hasan who writes for DT?) but all i can say is that when i come on the net on forums and blogs i dont come in any official capacity -- besides, it takes two to have decorum -- it's naive to think that when one is being subjected to vicious personal attacks that one will not reply in the same coin

21 May, 2007 15:02

 
Anonymous rahmat masih said...

dear mr quraishi

you said

"since that is clearly beyond you and most of your friends here i think i am wasting my time here -- good bye"

and

further down in the same post

"-- like i said i seem to be wasting my time at least here --"

and then you are constantly back. how about keeping promises, sir?

i can only quote you and say;

"bhot disappoint kiya aap nay" bhi.

21 May, 2007 15:21

 
Anonymous Omar R. Quraishi said...

because i wasnt responding to you rahmat sahib when i did return -- it was a completely new interactor and i thought i should at least reply to what he said -- i thought that was pretty obvious --

sorry to have disappointed you rahmat sahib

21 May, 2007 16:32

 
Anonymous Sin said...

Oh for the love of...give it up already. This is getting ridiculous, Zak! I haven't laughed this hard in...well, since I last read this exchange, actually.

21 May, 2007 19:19

 
Anonymous the olive ream said...

Shhh!! Can anyone hear the fat lady singing? I hope not... this is way too enjoyable to let go.

O.R.Q, I for one, will miss you ... (if you ever leave, that is)

21 May, 2007 19:46

 
Anonymous Omar R. Quraishi said...

kidvai sahib i hope your cafe is as welcoming as your blog -- didnt know i was talking to these two losers btw olive your wish just came true

21 May, 2007 23:24

 
Blogger Zakintosh said...

ORQ

The café - actually Sabeen's, not mine (though I am an advisor and a regular fixture, and will have many inputs in organizing some of the 'events') - will certainly welcome you and any others who wish to start debates, discussions, whatever. We need desperately to revive conversations in this city.

And remember, people on opposite sides of 'some' issues could be on the same side on other issues.

Look forward to seeing you there some day and to even continue our disagreement on whatever happened in these past few days on both blogs ... but with no hard feelings.

21 May, 2007 23:41

 
Blogger Omar said...

yes - no hard feelings

22 May, 2007 17:02

 
Blogger Blogistani said...

Wow! Flame throwers and flak jackets should be sold at T2F if this ever makes it out of cyberspace and into the real world. Why do I doubt that is going to happen?

27 June, 2007 15:06

 

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